Abagond describes the Three Bears Effect:
The Three Bears Effect is the name given by Aiyo at the blog Black British Girl for how whites stereotype blacks and Asians as opposites while putting themselves in the middle as “just right” – like in “Goldilocks and the Three Bears”.
For example, black men are stereotyped as having big penises but not much intelligence while Asian men are the other way round, leaving white men in the middle as “just right”.
It works so well in America that in most cases you can tell what the Asian stereotype will be by taking the opposite of the black one:
- If blacks are cool, then Asians are nerdy.
- If black women are disagreeable, overbearing and loud, then Asian women are sweet, submissive and quiet.
- If blacks are lazy, then Asians are hard working.
- If blacks have a lower IQ than whites, then Asians have a higher one.
- If blacks have a higher poverty rate than whites, then Asians have a lower one.
- If blacks have less education than whites, then Asians have more.
- If black women are “mannish”, then Asian women are “ultra-feminine”.
Etc.
In Not woman enough, Tami, a black woman, describes “the peculiar state of non-femaleness black women sometimes occupy in the mainstream.” White people generally see black women as “mannish”, so a white, male White Knight typically rushes to aid a white woman, but not a black woman, even when the white woman is the aggressor towards the black woman. Racial stereotypes can attenuate or amplify gender stereotypes.
Mainstream society perceives Asian women as “ultra-feminine” and extra submissive, and when we are sexually objectified, we are perceived as literal sex objects, even more dehumanized than white women. Racial stereotypes still interact with gender stereotypes when it comes to Asian women, but they amplify them. Asian women are stereotyped today in the way that white women were stereotyped in the 1950s. While some white people believe that certain female stereotypes are outdated and no longer apply to women today, it really means they no longer apply to white women. Many white men still realistically expect Asian women to be obedient wives, good cooks, diligent cleaners, submissive, quiet, playing a support role in a marriage, and submitting to sex on demand.
Restructure! 
January 2, 2011 at 7:42 pm
A “stereotype” would be if I meet a black woman and, based only on her being black, I conclude that she must be less feminine than white or Asian women. A statistical reality would be if I opine that black women, as a group, have higher testosterone levels, are physically larger and stronger and more assertive than their white or Asian peers.
The general rules that Abagond describes are very accurate – regarding groups. We get into trouble when we use these rules to judge individuals without taking into account other aspects of their personalities. For example, when I meet a woman, I will consider her a “lady” if she is dressed like a lady, smells like a lady, talks like a lady and acts like a lady. If she is loud, smelly, obnoxious, and rude then she is not a “lady” – regardless of her race. If I had to guess the level of “femininity” of an unknown female, and all I knew about her was that she is black, then my guess would be that she is less feminine than other females. Similarly, if I had to guess, from a line-up of unknown men of various races, which one has a criminal past, my first guess would be the black man. Statistics would be on my side. But if the black man came across as more educated and refined than the Asian man (who appeared to be a Yakuza member), then I would pick the Asian.
Evidently, many black men agree with Abagond’s general rules – because so many of them specifically seek non-black women. Relatively speaking, few white men seek black women. Asian man/black woman couples are very rare. This is not by accident. Steve Sailor has a good article on this called “Is Love Colorblind?”
January 2, 2011 at 9:24 pm
Black and White American men do not differ in testosterone levels, so your opinion is probably just an opinion, based on stereotypes and personal bias.
I would guess differently, in that I would assume that she is of average femininity, without knowing anything about her besides her race.
That is absurd and racist. Black men are more likely to be incarcerated, not more likely to be criminals. Even given that, most people do not have criminal pasts, so given the line up of men of, say, 5 different “races”, and you choose the black guy, you’re more likely to be wrong than right. It’s more likely that the criminal is among the other 4 people than within the 1 black guy.
But that’s probably how you operate. You probably cross the street when you see a black man walking towards you, etc.
January 2, 2011 at 9:31 pm
@jewamongyou: Hooray, racism AND gender essentialism!
January 2, 2011 at 11:21 pm
it does appear that asian and black stereotypes take uncanny opposite positions, but to attribute this to whites who want to leave themselves as “just right” is a bit constrained.
after all, why would a group, particularity a group with a superiority complex, want to position themselves as less intelligent, less educated, or lazier than another group?
commonsensically, being in the middle when it comes to those categories makes you average, 2nd tier, runner-up, not “just right.” the author makes a clever and interesting observation, but i think she then tries to pigeonhole the data into a per-existing ideology, probably some variant of “white privilege.” That part doesn’t ring true.
January 3, 2011 at 11:30 am
jewamongyou Says:
January 2, 2011 at 7:42 pm
Evidently, many black men agree with Abagond’s general rules – because so many of them specifically seek non-black women. Relatively speaking, few white men seek black women. Asian man/black woman couples are very rare. This is not by accident. Steve Sailor has a good article on this called “Is Love Colorblind?”
…….
jewamongyou :
I find your discourse so problematic…are you reading Abagond’s essay critically? She takes great efforts in her tone to distance herself from the racist – sexist ideology.
As a Jew, what do you know about this subject?
Maybe if some Jewish women would just stay away from Black guys, we would have this “miscegenation” – race mixing issue…!
January 3, 2011 at 12:22 pm
@Manju: A) white privilege is not just an ideology — it does exist, despite your sarcastic quotation marks; B) the point of the “three bears” argument (which I agree with totally) is not that we whites want to portray ourselves as “average-but-not-great”, but that we want to portray ourselves as “normal” and “default”.
@Anti-Status Quo Voice: I agree with you as far as finding jewamongyou’s discourse problematic (my initial response to him was just sarcasm and I probably should have been more specific in my rebuttal like Restructure! was), but I’m not clear on what you mean when you talk about Jewish women going after Black men.
January 3, 2011 at 12:38 pm
jewamongyou Says:
January 2, 2011 at 7:42 pm
A “stereotype” would be if I meet a black woman and, based only on her being black, I conclude that she must be less feminine than white or Asian women. A statistical reality would be if I opine that black women, as a group, have higher testosterone levels,
……..
What? What are you trying to say?
I find jewamongyou’s discourse problematic and just downright patronizing, as he pretends the understand the issues at stake.
No wonder so much bad-blood and tension continues to exist between the Black and Jewish communities with thinking like this!
So much for the politics of solidarity. If you believe this ideology, then you need to be censured!
I find it ironic you have internalized /subscribed to White supremacist ideology – essentialism. Very sad coming from a White Ethnic European person – a member of an oppressed group that has a bitter history of oppression and genocide; a group that likewise claims victimization in the media, begging other groups to recognize their struggles/humanity in a compassionate light.
From where are you getting your information…What books are you reading? How did you come to invest in these convoluted ideas and “stats”, like Black women have “more
testosterone”?
For Christ-sakes, this is W.S eugenics rhetoric! And I don’t detect a “distancing” tone / critique of them.
Clearly as jewamongyou’s discourse demonstrates, these “othering” stereotypes have not died but still hold power to colonize our gaze and understandings of gender/humanity.
But has jewamongyou ever stopped to reflect upon the many ugly stereotypes about Jewish women out there?
That WASPs often construct Jewish women as Lesbians and frigid “ice maidens”? Some could think of other choice sexist adjectives for Jewish women, and I’m not thinking of “ladies” either.
Before you invest any further into this White supremacist / sexist ideological crap, check yourself, and understand that Black and Asian peoples did not construct these controlling stereotypes —– but the same Anglo-Saxon White group to whom you demonstrate so much misguided allegiance.
Always take heed, jewamongyou, that are not one of them—that you hold only an honorary status and in a pinch, WASPs would kick you from that group—think of your old friend Adolf and his dehumanizing White supremacist /Aryan ideology mobilized to “justify” extermination of your religious ethnic group and its women. It could happen again!
You need to be critically conscience with these comments.
January 3, 2011 at 12:45 pm
ASQV,
1. Abagond is a man.
2. Black people can be Jews. jewamongyou happens to be a white Jew.
January 3, 2011 at 12:49 pm
numol Says:
January 3, 2011 at 12:22 pm
but I’m not clear on what you mean when you talk about Jewish women going after Black men.
……….
I meant nothing…! Perhaps wrongfully invoking a nasty US stereotype out there about Jewish women pursuing Black males for that so called “monster”….
Challenging him to think about his comment:
Evidently, many black men agree with Abagond’s general rules – because so many of them specifically seek non-black women.
Is it Black males who are doing all the pursuit?…Who are the “non-Black women”? Does it include women from his group?
Something to think about….
January 3, 2011 at 1:58 pm
ASQV,
1. Abagond is a man.
2. Black people can be Jews.
jewamongyou happens to be a white Jew.
…….
Thanks Restructure, I’ll make the gendered pronoun changes in future comments.
I am most aware of the phenomenon of Black Jews and of jewamongyou’s race/colour from his profile photo.
I really don’t want to “go there”…but just to make this guy aware of his White status and what that means; why it’s problematic for his investment / buttressing White supremacist rhetoric.
That Jews – Judaism is not a “race” but an ethnicity and a religious group. I find it problematic when this group walks in and out of these category, claiming both the “oppressed” group status AND the “privileges” and “invisibility” of racial Whiteness. Which is it…? Then they need to identify themselves with an adjective “White Jews” rather than becoming “invisible” and “race-neutral”.
Black Ethiopian Jews can’t claim the white-skin privilege of “invisibility”. They are always “marked” by their melanin content. Do Israeli and/or European Jews even consider/recognize them as “Jewish”?
Point made, pleeeease let’s drop this potentially messy issue. I just want this White Jewish guy to be more sensitive in recognizing that he is also speaking from a position of White privilege.
I won’t bring it up again!
Thanks for letting me know…
January 3, 2011 at 2:25 pm
Hey ASQV (can I call you that for short?), if there were some validity to the claim that Jewish women are cold lesbians, then I would accept the facts as they are. You come across as very emotional about these things; perhaps you should try viewing them objectively and without cries of guilt by association or other ad hominem tactics.
“White privilege” for me? Where do I sign up? In real life, people consider me Hispanic or Arab. I’ve been attacked by a mob because of my race (by blacks). I’ve been taunted by neo-Nazis and, as a child, ridiculed by other Jews because I was too dark for their taste. Yet, in the eyes of government, I am white and so I have been denied employment opportunities and other benefits.
Speaking of Jews, guess what? As a people, we are not perfect. There are plenty of evil things that Jews have done and, as a Jew, I can own up to them and admit it. There is no shame in this. I am still proud of my heritage and would not trade it for the world.
ASQV, you seem like a very animated person and I very much look forward to friendly debate with you!
January 3, 2011 at 3:12 pm
Let’s get back on track with the original thread.
……………
This is a very complex / multi-layered article showing the ways in which White women are privileged (viewed as empathetic, normal, and insulated by patriarchy) vis-à-vis Women of Colour. It needs to be unpacked more.
Overall, one of the underlying discourses of this article is the ways in which Whiteness as an identity constructs / represents itself as “normal” and “universal” by positioning itself as “just right” in between two extreme and racist notions of gendered sexuality.
Without these two binary opposites operating, it appears White feminine identity – Whiteness (as a “normal” and “naturalist” construct) wouldn’t have any meaning.
In order for “normalist” understandings of White women—the “fair” and “virtuous” sex to work—it requires mobilizing these hoary 19th century binary Black and Yellow tropes in order to represent itself.
But perhaps jewamongyou’s “Blame the victim” discourse (straight out of slavery and the Hottenhot Venus) underscores why so little or no empathy exists for Black women when they get raped or murdered.
For instance, Black women’s reports of abuse aren’t taken seriously / go uninvestigated by the police. It’s understood by “normal” White media consumers that Black women “deserve” or some how “instigated” the violence for trying to usurp patriarchal power/failure to comply like “real women” because they have “too much testosterone”. In White supremacist sexist discourse, these particular women “need” to be kept in check through coercion and “justifiable homicide” if necessary.
This is why movies like the venerated Precious (2009) are also problematic for Black female representation. I’ve often wondered if White women empathize with the Black woman’s struggles, or in their secure privilege, do they safely distance themselves from those experiences.
The same dehumanizing treatment holds for Asian women, because “Butterfly/geisha girl” was constructed in White supremacist ideology as “compliant” and “ultra feminine; As Abagond rightly claims, they also susceptible to male violence because there is an assumption Asian “want to be dominated”, that they were “born to serve” the sexual needs of patriarchal White males who desire those Asian Mail-order Brides because their own women might reject domesticity.
It’s this pervasive ideology—-the “feminization of Asia” that also led to White male – US colonization and invasions throughout history. In White supremacy, Asia remains just one “big pxssy” for the taking, when they resist occupation / domination they become “yellow peril”.
It appears only White women emerge as the “winners” on all counts. Placed on a pedestal by White patriarchy yet again, they are symbols to be perceived as bodies worthy of protection from male violence – deserving of public empathy. Whereas women colour merit none of these human rights/social courtesies, and get dehumanized vis-a-vis White women.
Abagond’s discourse also reveals some reasons why feminist solidarity between White and women of colour has been a historically uneasy one.
It often unnerves me whenever I see White women appropriate Black or especially Asian feminine performance (especially in old movies) to further their own artistic expression. They loose nothing.
I think this article challenges White women to do more, understanding and thinking across these ideological stereotypes and the ways in which they remain privileged/exempted by them at the expense of sistahs of colour.
January 3, 2011 at 3:33 pm
ASQV, would you care to quote me where I “blamed the victim”? I really can’t see how anybody could interpret my words as blaming the victim; are you assuming that having more testosterone is a crime worthy of punishment? Black women did not choose to have higher (average) testosterone or larger bodies. So I’m not sure where you’re coming from here.
As for society having little sympathy for black women who are raped/murdered, this might be partly because it is almost exclusively black men doing the raping/murdering – and people are afraid of being accused of racism. This might also explain why there is so little outcry over the genocide of pygmies or the dispossession of Khoisan tribes – also by blacks.
Ironically, ASQV, we’re on the same side here. I also do not like the fact that black men are considered more masculine than white men and white men more that Asian men (this being the flip side of what we are discussing re: women). If I had my druthers, each man and woman would be judged on his/her own merits. This sexual hierarchy disparages black women and elevates Asian women – but it also disparages Asian men and elevates black men. Two sides of the same coin.
January 3, 2011 at 3:58 pm
@ jewamongyou,
Yes,
I would also like to have healthy debate with you.
Your wrote: if there were some validity to the claim that Jewish women are cold lesbians, then I would accept the facts as they are.
No there is NO validity to this claim…Nonetheless, we must be aware of the existence of this harmful mythology in the print media, films, etc. For instance that controversy about that Jewish female judge that Pres Obama recently appointed in 2010. It nearly de-railed her…
And that’s what the stereotypes about Black and Asian women are—harmful myths.
So is the “Black Cxckasourus”—all of them designed to de-humanize and subordinate men and women of colour.
You wrote: “White privilege” for me? Where do I sign up?
I’m glad that you have shared some of your struggles as a Jewish person. Still, what I don’t understand is, why this discourse of denial / minimization of racism / White privilege along with an invocation of eugenics rhetoric prevades your comments…? There was another thread of yours from months ago where there was similar disavowal of white privilege / identity.
Do you not recognize it?
Do you not acknowledge the existence of White privilege? It’s relativity in different social settings? That maybe in another country you didn’t have it because of a dark complexion, but in Canada it probably works for you…?
As for being “animated” and “emotional”…Yah, People of Colour can get “emotional” about racism…Because it pains us, it has potential to cause us tremendous social harm when these views are turned into Actions that effect social choices/quality of life outcomes.
Here, I speak from the ugly experience of filing a Human Rights Complaint from about 10 years ago against a former employer, where I was a victim of vicious anti-Black male stereotypes in the workplace.
And is our resistance to it all any more “irrational” and “looney-toon” than rhetoric from the trolls?
January 3, 2011 at 4:13 pm
ASQV. I find it helpful to deal with one issue at a time; otherwise, discussions of this nature always devolve into shouting matches.
I say we start with your previous statement that I was “blaming the victim”. Do you still stand by that or do you now realize that I was not blaming the victim – that higher testosterone is not worthy of punishment? That larger women do not choose to be this way?
January 3, 2011 at 4:43 pm
@ Restructure and the bloggership
I am often deeply concerned when I see POCs acting in COMPLICITY in their own oppression, through keeping the status quo or subscribing / pandering the sexual stereotyping simply because we remain ignorant / unaware of the discursive and cultural myths.
This happens when we don’t read other works or critically reflect on our racialized experiences. Stop expecting others to educate/do the anti-racist work for you, blogging is great, but it’s not enough!
My sample book list on what’s out there on sexual stereotyping / race politics :
Black Sexual Politics: African Americans, Gender, and the New Racism by Patricia Hill Collins
Women, Race, & Class by Angela Y. Davis
Black Venus – Sexualized Savages, Primal Fears, Primitive Narratives – T. Denean Sharpley-Whiting (Author),
The Asian Mystique: Dragon Ladies, Geisha Girls, and Our Fantasies of the Exotic Orient by Sheridan Prasso
Romance and the “Yellow Peril”: Race, Sex, and Discursive Strategies in Hollywood Fiction by Gina Marchetti
Buller Men and Batty Bwoys: Hidden Men in Toronto and Halifax Black Communities by Wesley Crichlow
How Jews Became White Folks: And What That Says about Race in America by Karen Brodkin
January 3, 2011 at 5:47 pm
I’ll take you to task ASQV. You speak of “educating” and “myths”. The logical place to start, in such an endeavor, would be to actually educate. So here’s your chance.
Let’s start from the very beginning: We need to define “femininity” (or whatever word we choose to use that describes what Asian women are supposed to have a lot of and black women less of). Let us please start by defining this trait in some useful way. Secondly, we need to explain how you know there is no truth to these “stereotypes”? A true scientists (or anybody interested in discovering the truth about something) will not assume anything. So let’s not start by assuming anything. Instead, let us start, after defining our terms, if there can be any truth to the claims. If not, why not? I think this is a reasonable request.
The original post listed some traits – and called them “stereotypes”, which seems to imply they are not valid. To me, it seems like a mixture of valid statistical truths and gross generalities. I think some sort of distinction should be made.
* If blacks are cool, then Asians are nerdy.
* If black women are disagreeable, overbearing and loud, then Asian women are sweet, submissive and quiet.
* If blacks are lazy, then Asians are hard working.
* If blacks have a lower IQ than whites, then Asians have a higher one.
* If blacks have a higher poverty rate than whites, then Asians have a lower one.
* If blacks have less education than whites, then Asians have more.
* If black women are “mannish”, then Asian women are “ultra-feminine”.
One of the above regards poverty rates. Does anybody here doubt that blacks have higher poverty rates than whites and whites than Asians? If it is true, then is it still “racist” to point it out? Simple question…
On the other hand, “blacks are cool while Asians are nerdy”. This sort of thing cannot be debated meaningfully for obvious reasons.
January 3, 2011 at 8:07 pm
@jewamongyou: You yourself are assuming a lot, actually. You started out assuming a lot, and Restructure! took YOU to task. You’ve continued assuming quite a bit over the course of your discussion with Anti-Status Quo Voice, and he’s so far taken you to task numerous times. In other words, you’re not much of a scientist.
January 3, 2011 at 8:38 pm
The testosterone level study cited by restructure controlled for body fat and some other factors. Higher testosterone tends to lower body fat. So, in a roundabout way, the study compares testosterone levels, between the races, by controlling for testosterone levels.
Furthermore, other studies have shown that the black/white testosterone difference is real up to age 40:
http://www.goldjournal.net/article/S0090-4295%2899%2900290-3/abstract
After 40, they level off. Obviously, the vast majority of crime and other aggressive behavior takes place before age 40.
But, in all fairness, I now remember a study I read that it’s not so much the testosterone levels but how they are expressed that differs between the races.
Calling me “absurd” and “racist” mean nothing. Calling somebody a “racist” merely means he is white. I don’t see a problem with that and the accusation of being a “racist” carries about as much weight as being called a “doodoo head”.
As for the theory that blacks are incarcerated more, but do not commit more crime, this contradicts my own personal experience and the experience of thousands of other people of all races. The fact that victim descriptions of perpetrators match up almost perfectly with arrest records (as far as racial proportions) lends credence to the crime statistics. Furthermore, if you’re going to attribute the high black crime rate to white racism, how do you explain the high black crime rate even in black-controlled areas? Do you accuse even blacks of being racist against their own people? Seriously – blacks now control South Africa – and their statistics also show that whites and Asians are way underrepresented in crime compared to blacks – but especially compared to coloreds.
January 3, 2011 at 8:53 pm
Here’s a good synopsis of racial testosterone levels:
http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2008/03/testosterone-and-human-variation.html
I think she sums it up pretty nicely.
January 3, 2011 at 11:05 pm
jewamongyou Says:
January 3, 2011 at 8:53 pm
I think she sums it up pretty nicely.
…………
I was going to try to respond in a more thoughtful way to you and address the “blame the victim” discourse.
But why are you trotting out all this biology for us, to prove that the Hottentot Black woman indeed has more testosterone; that Black women are therefore less “feminine” opposite White women? Is it to “justify” the centuries of oppression and contempt that has been meted out on them?
I don’t “traffic” the rhetoric of eugenics and biological racism but deal in Critical Discourse Analysis. I will explain this later.
Whether you feel you are “racist” or not, is becoming a mute question, rather it’s how we/other readers are perceiving you in all this denial, and insistence on “proving and justifying” racial difference / unequal treatment of women, that’s becoming the issue.
You still haven’t answered any of my questions regarding the existence of White privilege / perspective.
Bed time. I’ve said enough for today.
January 4, 2011 at 2:45 am
“Is it to “justify” the centuries of oppression and contempt that has been meted out on them?”
The discussion is about stereotypes and that is what I’m addressing here. Not past oppression.
White privilege: I have no illusions of changing anybody’s mind here, but I shall express my opinion on the matter.
A very small minority of citizens have massive wealth, influence and connections. Since this country was founding by whites, many of that small elite are white. This does not help the vast majority of whites who do not have such advantages. As a matter of fact, this small elite discriminates against powerless whites. A lot of people assume that, since many of these elites are racially white, therefore they have some sort of loyalty to their own race. Nothing could be further from the truth. The oppression of the powerless masses, by the powerful elite is NOT a racial matter at all. Similarly in places like Zimbabwe, those who are connected to the ruling class have a lot of clout. They have privilege – not because they’re black, but because they are connected.
For the past 50 years plus, we have had an entrenched affirmative action policy in government and large corporations. They actively discriminate against whites – not the powerful whites mentioned above, but the powerless whites. As one might expect, these powerless whites have built up a certain amount of anger over this – and that explains some of the hostility that blacks and Hispanics suffer. Add to this the mostly one-sided phenomenon of interracial crime (such as robbery, burglary and rape) and the anger is even stronger. It is extremely rare for a white man to rape a black woman, but black men rape white women about 100 times a day. This is according to FBI statistics – which, by the way, are heavily biased AGAINST whites; they count Hispanics as white when they commit crimes, but as “Hispanic” when they are victims. So the crime is even more one-sided than the statistics show. A black woman can walk through a white neighborhood at night without fear of being raped. A white woman would be foolish to do the same in a black neighborhood. This is not white privilege. It is black privilege.
It is black privilege that black men are so strongly coveted by non-black women. Black men almost have to fight them off with sticks. Meanwhile, many white and Asian men remain lonely. This is not white privilege. It is black privilege.
Colleges and universities are openly hostile to whites and have been for some time. Non-Jewish white males are grossly underrepresented in Ivy League schools. This is the status quo. Every ethnic group has specific representation on campus – and some are even funded through tax dollars. But organizations specifically for whites are not allowed; it would be considered “racist”. This is not white privilege. It is “people of color” privilege.
There is a Congressional Black Caucus that has immense power. They look out for the interests of black people. White members of Congress also look out for the interests of black people and Hispanics. Nobody specifically looks out for the interests of white people in government. This is not white privilege. It is black and Hispanic privilege.
The established mainstream press suppresses hate crimes against whites and is openly hostile to whites as a group. Their favoritism toward non-whites is blatant and obvious. This is not white privilege. It is non-white privilege.
All of the above is well-documented. Books have been written about it. I can cite the evidence – but then this post would be book long. Perhaps in other posts.
Like I said, I will not change minds here on this subject; my statements will only be met with more accusations of “racism” – which mean nothing. Can anybody here even give a precise definition of “racism” that would apply to people with opinions like my own?
Anyway, ASQV, it’s your turn to answer my questions.
January 4, 2011 at 6:08 am
Anti-Status: Did you just try to talk a jew into joining an antiwhite coalition?
January 4, 2011 at 8:26 am
jewamongyou,
That is so off-topic. Please see Masking the gender and race of job applicants increases diversity in hiring for an example of how white people in general, not just rich white people, have white privilege. Also see Do all white people have white privilege? Why?
January 4, 2011 at 11:56 am
Sorry Restructure. I didn’t mean to stray from the topic – but I was trying to answer ASQV’s question. He did ask me my opinion about “white privilege”. Thanks for the links; I shall read them and get back to you.
January 4, 2011 at 12:55 pm
I read and understood both of articles…
Again, I ask why are you invoking these biological and anthropological studies to explain and justify social oppression based on so-called White “normalcy” and the right to dominate?
The articles are about Cancer! And the social activities like smoking and alcohol consumption that increase the risks of developing prostate cancer.
So Blacks are “prone” to getting prostate cancer…So what? That explains social “deviance”, circumstances and the need for White dominance?
JAY, There are some EXTREME racial ideologies about Jewish people out there in media discourse—– that Jewish men are more prone to homosexuality and have “smaller penises” vis a vis the “normal” Anglo-Saxon and Nordic men…
Would you say that such mythology should justify the treatment of Jews?
Did Blacks or Asians go around creating these theories, based on findings of penis measurement size of other males?
January 4, 2011 at 1:21 pm
Jewamongyou, either one has and demonstrates a commitment to Anti-racist – Anti-oppression thought and principles or one doesn’t. One cannot waiver in and out with discourse and language that re-inscribes racist or White supremacist ideology.
In attempting to respond/answer to the Blame the victim / denial of White privilege discourse that I see emerging your rebuttals, I want to first to discuss/define what is meant by Critical Discourse Analysis.
CRITICAL DISCOURSE ANALYSIS
This theory, if you like, is basically a multidisciplinary study that examines language and communication in the context of cultural production/meaning. It look at how social power, dominance and social inequality are produced, perpetuated or resisted in text / speech in social and political context. It used to deconstruct ideology and dominant discourse of those in power / elite groups.
Therefore ‘Blame the Victim” is a common discourse / rhetoric mobilized by members of dominant groups (as you identify as White) to explain and attribute the problems / “failings” of an oppressed group—Blacks, women, Gays, disabled unto them.
In Blame the Victim discourse, Whites can acknowledge that terrible things (poverty, Hurricanes, earthquakes, war, and genocide) happen to people. But to get off the hook of social accountability, keep White privilege in tact, the dominant group can displace fault / scapegoat the oppressed group as being culturally or morally deficient, lacking intellectual prowess or prone to more aggressive and “deviant” behaviours than the norms established by dominant Whites in that “just right” centre named in the original article.
This is where the stereotypes and cultural myths mentioned above come into action. Historically Whites (the dominant group) can draw of a rich supply of negative stereotypes to satisfy themselves that if People of Colour were some how “different” or more like White people, there wouldn’t be any problems. We have seen repeatedly on other threads, discourse like “if Blacks were smarter or worked harder” there wouldn’t be say so much crime and poverty in their group.
It allows the dominant group to disregard/dismiss all the historical, social and political ramifications of this statement, allowing the dominant group to “justify” their unequal treatment and condition.
Similarly, some dominant men can convince themselves that women who complain of sexual harassment / violence are “hypersensitive”, or that were “sending “mixed signals”, “couldn’t perform on the job”. If the woman isn’t emotional or nurturing, then men can easily criticize females for not being “feminine” and “womanly” enough—“too much like a man”. So any abuse/discrimination women receive, we can dismiss with she “deserves what she gets”.
Racial and sexual stereotypes have authority and constantly depend on people AGREEING with them, if not always to their face.
Therefore, when one declares and agrees with the “scientific” / biological findings that all Black women have more testosterone, that’s the ONLY REASON that renders Black women more “masculine”, “aggressive” and “hard to manage”, one is also stating that any discrimination / violence / exclusion on them is “justified”. They “deserve” the treatment they get.
The big outcome / result of this is that all discrimination / oppression gets DISPLACED back onto the people who suffer from it most, WHILE those who have White and/or Class PRIVILEGE and BENEFIT from unequal treatment of others, remain INVISIBLE, or relatively UNSCATHED.
They can safely declare “it is not their fault” and THEREFORE “we don’t have to anything about it”. A response, by the way, often adopted by Holocaust deniers.
When one invokes the biological rhetoric of “testosterone levels” , one is also arguing that the so-called “differences” and “social failure” of Black and Asian to succeed or integrate into the mainstream dominant White culture is due to “rebellious” group members who refuse to adapt their “differences” (i.e. this can be physical attributes, and religion as well) to fit into the prescribed and dominant ideological “norms” of Canadian society. You are saying that their struggles have nothing to do with the social but just biology!
As Jewish person of ambivalent skin-colouring, but who still appears White-looking in Canada, it seems you can easily “adapt”, and cross racial and national boundaries with ease. From physical appearances, it seems that nobody knows what you are, and perhaps this ambivalence has aided you in “transcending” both ethnic and racial categories.
That is a privilege in itself and that you have apparently used to your advantage in North America.
Count yourself lucky.
January 4, 2011 at 1:42 pm
Jewamongyou says:
White privilege: I have no illusions of changing anybody’s mind here, but I shall express my opinion on the matter.
………………….
You make some odd / almost confounding statements. What does this statement mean? So you do acknowledge there is privilege/exemption from certain oppressions on one hand; that you have some benefits/advantage from White privilege, but it doesn’t matter, anyway? Are you also saying, “that’s the way it is” and “it’s better this way”? Both are status quo statements.
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JAY says:
Since this country was founding by whites, many of that small elite are white.
Then you switch to Africa with ‘The oppression of the powerless masses, by the powerful elite is NOT a racial matter at all. Similarly in places like Zimbabwe, those who are connected to the ruling class have a lot of clout”.
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In Critical Discourse Analysis, this kind of statement is known as “False analogy”, an “apples and oranges” argument.
In the future, let’s confine ourselves to North American context. I will stop referencing Europe and you stop referencing African countries/politics, Zulus and pygmies, etc. This is completely unfair to Continental Africans and dishonest. Cause then we would need to interrogate the history of colonialism and de-colonization.
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JAY says: For the past 50 years plus, we have had an entrenched affirmative action policy in government and large corporations. They actively discriminate against whites – not the powerful whites mentioned above, but the powerless whites.
And further down.
“Colleges and universities are openly hostile to whites and have been for some time. Non-Jewish white males are grossly underrepresented in Ivy League schools. This is the status quo”.
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It is status quo and also the discourse of “reverse White victimization” already exhausted on many threats on education and employment.
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JAY says: It is extremely rare for a white man to rape a black woman, but black men rape white women about 100 times a day. This is according to FBI statistics – which, by the way, are heavily biased AGAINST whites; they count Hispanics as white when they commit crimes, but as “Hispanic” when they are victims. So the crime is even more one-sided than the statistics show.
…………
“about 100 times a day”? Is that all?! Another media racism statement—Also you have identified Hispanics, another intermediate racialized group that walks in and out of White identity…So what does this say Jews and their abilities to “pass” and ‘adapt” into the White mainstream when they choose?.
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JAY says: It is black privilege… It is black privilege that black men are so strongly coveted by non-black women.
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Sounds like sour grapes. But seriously, There is no such thing as “Black privilege”. Blacks have never been “advantaged” by race, historically and into the continuum in North America. They might be advantaged by light skin Caste and Class, maybe, but not race.
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JAY says: Nobody specifically looks out for the interests of white people in government. This is not white privilege. It is black and Hispanic privilege.
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Again the discourse of “Reverse White victimization” and “Colourblindness”. A Hispanic person would also argue this point of privilege.
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JAY says: Can anybody here even give a precise definition of “racism” that would apply to people with opinions like my own?
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Yes, we can, when we marshal-up biological and cultural differences to explain away and justify social inequality and treatment.
When we/ a social group takes one’s prejudices opinions and ideologies/ stereotypes / mythology and turn them into action, social policy / legislation to dominate/ subordinate/exclude those others based on skin colour / cultural differences.
This is the true meaning of racism and White patriarchal domination.
As a Jew (when you wish to identified as one) you can’t act on your prejudices but as a White European person (when you desire) your discourse just dovetails / affirms White supremacist ideology.
January 4, 2011 at 1:56 pm
“all Black women have more testosterone”. I would never say such a thing; each woman is an individual. What I said was that ON AVERAGE black women have higher testosterone levels.
“either one has and demonstrates a commitment to Anti-racist – Anti-oppression thought and principles or one doesn’t.” How do you define yourself? Do you oppose anti-white discrimination and racism? It is pervasive in America and the U.K. Here, watch this:
… and no, we cannot divorce what happens in Africa and Europe with what happens in the U.S. We all live in the same world now. We are all interconnected.
How do you explain that the NBA is majority black? Would this not be evidence of anti-white discrimination?
What you call “rhetoric”, with regards to the biological reality of race, may actually be fact. Have you ever considered this? I agree with you that it is wrong to stigmatize entire groups, or to hate somebody for what he is. But, if we let the chips fall where they may, we will find that all groups are not equal. The young and old will differ. Men and women will differ. Blacks and whites will differ (NBA for example). This is nature. You can either accept it or reject it but nature doesn’t care. She will do what she wants anyway.
January 4, 2011 at 2:37 pm
Anti-Status says: But perhaps jewamongyou’s “Blame the victim” discourse (straight out of slavery and the Hottenhot Venus) underscores why so little or no empathy exists for Black women when they get raped or murdered.
JAY says: It is extremely rare for a white man to rape a black woman, but black men rape white women about 100 times a day.
Anti-Status: “about 100 times a day”? Is that all?! Another media racism statement
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First you criticize others by saying there is no empathy for black women who are raped and murdered by black men. And then you demonstrated a shocking lack of empathy for white women who were raped and murdered by black men. It’s obvious who lacks the empathy. The ones doing the raping and murdering. And you.
January 4, 2011 at 3:37 pm
Janine Says:
January 4, 2011 at 2:37 pm
And then you demonstrated a shocking lack of empathy for white women who were raped and murdered by black men.
……
Miss Janine—get a life! Please read the whole post and don’t take it out of its contexts!
Clearly, you didn’t see / or ignored the facetiousness of the quotation marks and ?! Which was it?
I knew I shouldn’t have written this and I will refrain in the future from such jokes as a rebuttal to pernicious “black men rape white women about 100 times a day”.
Please don’t patronize me about “Empathy”—-especially for White women—-as you can already see it has diminished a long time ago. And I expect any from you either!
That’s something the majority of White people know nothing about!
That’s why they cannot identify or have compassion for experiences outside of their social groups or environment….
Yet Black and other people of colour are always expected/coerced into identifying with Whiteness (its cultural practices and its sensibilities) to the point we must eradicate our own needs and silence our own experiences.
Seeing White lives as so “valuable” and “important”.
Racism/domination, is a form of psychological “rape” and humiliation as well…but most White folks don’t get that!
January 4, 2011 at 4:53 pm
“That’s something the majority of White people know nothing about!
That’s why they cannot identify or have compassion for experiences outside of their social groups or environment…. ”
Such sweeping generalizations about whites. I would say this qualifies as “racism”. Are all whites the same to you? I can tell you, with complete honesty, that blacks are not all the same to me. I don’t say “blacks are this and that”. Instead, I’ll say “there is a tendency among blacks…” or “blacks on average are this or that”. It is an important distinction, because they allow us to understand societal trends and statistics but still respect the individual as an individual.
January 4, 2011 at 7:29 pm
@jewamongyou: You said: “I don’t say “blacks are this and that”. Instead, I’ll say “there is a tendency among blacks…” or “blacks on average are this or that”.”
Actually, you *have* gone around saying things like “black men rape white women about 100 times a day”, so that’s not true. And framing your inherently racist generalizations differently would not make them any less racist anyway.
Also, ASQV’s generalizations about whites do not come from stereotypes, but from personal experience. My own experiences with white people definitely match what he says, and I’m white myself.
January 4, 2011 at 10:40 pm
Numol, don’t think that the fact you are white exempts you from being an anti-white racist. Whites suffer far more from white-hating whites than from white-hating non-whites.
I also find your defence of ASQV’s generalizations interesting. You defend them by saying they are accurate generalizations. So are you saying that none of the generalizations about blacks are true? This would make blacks the superior race; is this your contention?
You seem to think there is a contradiction between my statement that “black men rape white women about 100 times a day” and my disdain for blanket generalizations. I guess you somehow thought that I meant “all black men rape 100 white women a day”, so let me clear that up for you: not all black men are rapists and they do not all rape white women. There. That should make it more clear. By the way, I don’t see anybody disputing this rape fact. This could mean that a) y’all do not care about rape, as long as it’s blacks doing the raping b) y’all do not care about white women at all or c) y’all find it more convenient to ignore inconvenient facts because it would require being open-minded if you didn’t. Which one is it?
January 5, 2011 at 5:44 pm
@Restructure!: This comment is mostly a rebuttal of jewamongyou’s use of Black-on-White rape statistics. If you think it is too off-topic and decide to delete it, you will get no rudeness from me.
@jewamongyou:
Accusing people who point out racism of being “anti-white” is a derailing tactic, as are your other accusations. Also (and I really should have noticed this earlier), what happened to your earlier assertion that accusing someone of racism isn’t any better than calling that person a “doodoo-head”? Predictably, that point went right out the window as soon as it became YOUR turn to accuse.
As for the statistic you brought up: really, nobody’s addressed it yet? Could it be because it’s been quoted by white racists again and again, in many different places, and its alleged implications debunked again and again?
In regards to *your specific* use of those stats, it is racist and a generalization because of the way you used it — you were trying to “prove” that white privilege does not exist, that people of color systemically take advantage of whites, and throughout this thread you’ve been defending racist stereotypes. These positions are all racist and silly, and your argument tactics have been circular, manipulative, and nonsensical from the beginning.
Here are just some of the reasons I’ve seen used to prove that you cannot use those rape stats to conclusively demonstrate anything about Black people as a race (since Restructure! and ASQV already schooled you on white privilege):
* There are more white people than Black people in the US in the first place.
* You have not provided a link to those figures you cite — assuming they are even accurate, do they control for other factors, such as geographic location or family history? Somehow I doubt it.
* You are citing interracial statistics only, rather than overall statistics of rape. Most men who rape white women are themselves white — in fact the majority of violent crime is intra-racial rather than interracial (see: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus0602.pdf).
* You can use statistics to make any point you like if you take those stats out of context while implying that they’re the whole story. I could, for example, say “whites molest children at nearly three times the rate of Black people” (see: http://ezfame.com/child-molestation-statistics/), making it sound like whites AS A RACE are more *naturally inclined* to molest children without directly coming out and saying it… and then I could say “Hey, I’m not anti-white — these are the facts!” Blah blah blah. Also note that, apparently, Hispanics *are* treated as a separate group for *that* particular set of statistics.
I also suggest you read this article (http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2000/summer/coloring-crime) that debunks white racist claims that are similar to yours (not identical, but very similar).
January 5, 2011 at 5:47 pm
* In regards to “there are more whites than Black people in the US in the first place” — yes I know that doesn’t negate the entire statistic by itself, but it does provide a bit more perspective.
January 5, 2011 at 6:31 pm
Re: Numol,
Thanks for your rebuttal; it’s nice to keep things lively!
As for me using the term anti-white/racist, how can you describe yourself as not being “anti-white” considering what you’ve said about whites? But I’ll concede this to you; I shall retain the high ground here and refrain from such attacks in the future.
“and its alleged implications debunked again and again?” Debunked? Well, please forgive my ignorance – but would you mind enlightening me as to how it’s been debunked? Your saying so does not make it so. So please, don’t be bashful. Go ahead and explain it to me. I’m all ears.
“it is racist and a generalization because of the way you used it — you were trying to “prove” that white privilege does not exist, that people of color systemically take advantage of whites” – so, it is “racist” to deny “white privilege? What next? Will it also be “racist” to deny that whites are inferior? That’s an interesting definition of “racist” you’ve got there. In a nutshell, it boils down to “anybody who disagrees with my perspective on race is a racist”. How convenient. Well I have looked up “racist” in a couple of dictionaries and they state that a racist is somebody who believes in the superiority of one race over another. No mention of “denying white privilege”. Which dictionary did you pull that out of?
That people of color systematically take advantage of whites. I don’t remember writing that – but there is still some truth to it. I do not blame people of color for this system; they only take what is given to them. Even my own son has done this (he easily passes for black). Instead I blame self-hating whites in government and those who support them for setting up the affirmative action system we have today. But again, how exactly, is pointing this out “racist”? My son is a “person of color” by any standards and he will be the first to tell you that he has it easy because of it. That he has had an advantage his whole life over whites because of it. He admits it – but he finds it hard to reject these advantages. So is he a racist too?
Let’s take a look at your rebuttal of the rape statistics:
1) * You have not provided a link to those figures you cite — assuming they are even accurate, do they control for other factors, such as geographic location or family history? Somehow I doubt it.
This is an interesting thing for you to write – since, only a few lines earlier you wrote: “it’s been quoted by white racists again and again, in many different places, and its alleged implications debunked again and again?” So how could it be that a passionate person such as yourself, who has such strong convictions, has not even bothered to look them up? Bizarre to say the least. But anyway, it’s not like you should have any difficulty finding sources:
http://library.flawlesslogic.com/rape.htm
Seriously, how much effort does it take to do a simple google search? Check out the footnotes; the Dept. of Justice does not make it easy to extract the numbers. It’s not like they WANT us to know. And yet, the numbers are there for all to see – and you should see them. As for taking into account demographics etc. I’m not sure what you mean by this. Are you going to explain away a disparity of 100 to 0 by means of “demographics, family history or geography”? How so? Oh, I get it. You must be implying that a) living in New York (for example) forces black men to rape more white women or b) growing up in a fatherless household causes black men to rape white women or c) there are no black women in Florida for black men to rape, so they have no choice but to rape white women. What, exactly, do you mean?
2) * You are citing interracial statistics only, rather than overall statistics of rape. Most men who rape white women are themselves white — in fact the majority of violent crime is intra-racial rather than interracial (see: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus0602.pdf).
Yes, it is true that most rapes are intra-racial. But how does this make it right to ignore interracial rape? This is like saying “most rape is against adults. Therefore, I’ll ignore rape against children.” The fact remains that there is a huge disparity in interracial rape. Why would you seek to ignore it? You do not dispute that the disparity exists; you try to dismiss it. Why? Hey, you know what? Most people convicted of crimes are actually guilty. Does this mean it’s right to ignore those who are actually innocent? Most Africans are not starving. By your logic, we should ignore the ones who are. Most people do not have AIDS. According to you, this means we can ignore the ones who are infected. What kind of bizarre world do you live in numol?
3) * You can use statistics to make any point you like if you take those stats out of context while implying that they’re the whole story. I could, for example, say “whites molest children at nearly three times the rate of Black people”
“Out of context”? We were talking about “white privilege” and I pointed out that, when we look at the relationship between whites and blacks, whites are the VICTIMS and this, by definition, means they are not “privileged”. And you say this is “out of context”? What if we were examining the relationship between white settlers and Native Americans and I pointed out that far more Native Americans were killed by whites than the other way around. Would you claim this is “out of context”? By the way, far more Native Americans were killed by microbes than by whites. According to you, this would mean there was no persecution by whites of Native Americans (going back to the previous point). But I would say that, even though microbes killed more than settlers did, nevertheless there was a relationship of persecution.
November 13, 2011 at 11:51 am
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