White people assume that non-Western cultures are less civilized.

White people were aware of non-white societies for centuries, and needed to a way to organize this knowledge in relation to themselves. One way white people have historically organized this knowledge was to assume that non-Western societies were inferior and Western societies were superior, and that non-white people were “savages” and white people were “civilized”. White people assumed that societies “progressed” from “savage” to “civilized”, from heathen to Christian, from non-Western to Western. White people believed that African cultures and Native American cultures were “primitive” and that given enough time, these cultures would “advance” to look very much like white, Western societies.

Most white people today still hold the same views implicitly, in that even most white liberals consider non-Western cultures “ancient” and “traditional”. The assumption behind this way of thinking is that non-Western cultures are stuck in the past, and that Western societies live in the present. When white people organize Western and non-Western cultures on a timeline by placing non-Western cultures in the past and Western society in the present, they are assuming that societies “progress” unilinearly from non-Western to Western. That is, to view non-Western cultures as “ancient” and “traditional” is to view Western society as the most culturally advanced and the most evolved. Most white people think that to “Westernize” is same as to “modernize” and improve.

In the 18th century, there were white people called Romanticists who believed that non-Western societies were morally superior to Western societies. However, the assumption behind this chain of reasoning was that non-white people were more innocent and childlike, more “natural” and uncorrupted by modern civilization, and therefore sinless. Although these white people had good intentions and stereotyped non-white people with feelings of admiration instead of hatred, these white people still considered non-white people “primitive”, less advanced, less adult, and more animal-like. The stereotype of non-white people as primitive, morally superior, and closer to nature is called the Noble Savage stereotype.

Unfortunately, many white people today still think of non-white people as Noble Savages. Many white people think that Asians have “ancient wisdom”, that indigenous North Americans are “in touch with the earth”, and that African Americans are more emotionally expressive Magical Negroes. Although most white liberals who have these beliefs about non-white people would deny that non-white people are more ancient, natural, or emotional because of genetics, they attribute these perceived differences between whites and non-whites as differences in “culture”. In other words, most white liberals believe implicitly that the less Westernized a person is, the more this person has Noble Savage characteristics (even if this person is white).

White antiracists are not immune to thinking of people of colour as stereotypes.

What is interesting is that even white people who self-identify as “antiracist” can continue to believe that white people and culture are more rational and more civilized, and that non-white people and culture are more emotional and less civilized. White “antiracist” author of the blog Stuff White People Do, Macon D, acknowledged that the Magical Negro is a stereotype and that the white people stereotype black people as being “closer to their emotions”. However, Macon D also wrote another post ostensibly about what whites do not understand about black people when they refuse to listen to black anger*:

As they do so, over these and other racial disagreements, these white people often say something like, “If you’re going to get emotional, then I can’t discuss this with you.” For white people, anger is a dangerous force that blows out the light of reason. They may not realize it (middle-class ones, especially), but white people often insist that discussions be conducted in their way, and not in someone else’s way. Their calm, rational way, that is, and not another group or culture’s more emotionally engaged way. (And guess who’s automatically at an advantage in calm, rational discussions?)

(emphasis mine)

Amazingly, Macon D alleges that white people as a group and culture discuss things rationally, while non-white (read: black) people as a group and culture discuss things emotionally. Again, Macon D provides no reference or support for his assumption that black (or non-white) discussion styles are more emotional and less rational, relying on armchair anthropology or some other questionable methods of belief acquisition.

Now at this point, there may be some uncertainty about what Macon D means exactly by the terms “rational” and “emotional”. For example, when he claims that whites are more “rational”, he may mean that white people act in their best interests when discussing race; when he claims that non-whites (read: blacks) are more “emotional”, he may mean that they are more attentive when discussing race. However, Macon D clarifies what he means by “rational” and “emotional” in a response to a critical comment by jw, and neither of these charitable interpretations apply (jw’s words are in italics):

Already your claim of “civil discussions in a calm and rational way” you think would be typical for whites, indicates, that you didn’t have many talks with whites when it comes to race.

Oh but I have, middle-class whites especially, from the ones among that group willing to even discuss racism. “Civilized” and “rational” is the way they almost always want to talk about race–passion and hysterics are an exception to a general rule. […] Yes, I’ve seen individual whites get hysterical, but that’s been to the frowning consternation of the other whites in the room, who usually do all they can to calm that person down. I’m talking about a general white consensus for discussion of race; certainly individuals act as exceptions to the rule, as with any general rule or tendency.

(emphasis (bold) mine)

In other words, what Macon D meant in the original post by “rational” was “civilized”, and what he meant by “emotional” was “hysterical”. According to Macon D, white people discuss race in a “civilized” manner, and non-white (read: black) people discuss race in an uncivilized or less civilized manner. Moreover, according to Macon D, when non-white (read: black) people discuss race, they behave hysterically, and do so because of their culture.

Macon D has also added further clarifications, implying that when white people and black people discuss race, black people appear to be emotionally demonstrative and “shouting” on average, because most come from lower-class backgrounds (or because most black people are somehow culturally similar to lower-class whites):

Some white people are not at that advantage in calm, subdued, “rational” discussions because they come from lower-class backgrounds where getting emotionally demonstrative and shouting and so on are expected. So it’s a class thing as well as a race thing. The person at an advantage in a calm, rational discussion is one who’s been subtly and thoroughly trained to discuss things that way, be they white or black. So what the post is saying, though not in a way that’s quite fine-tuned enough, is that more white Americans are trained in that mode than are African Americans. […]

Once again, Macon D believes that he can objectively observe and comment on how most African Americans are “subtly and thoroughly trained” to discuss things. According to Macon D, in a discussion about race, if a black person appears to be emotionally demonstrative (read: angry or hysterical), it must be because of her culture or because she comes from a lower-class background.

Since Macon D begins with the unfounded and racist assumption that white people are generally more rational and civilized in discussions about race, he does not even consider the possible scenario that white people are less rational and more emotionally defensive when they participate in race discussions, and that he, as less-rational and more-emotionally-defensive white person, is in no position to judge who is rational and who is emotional. For some reason, Macon D believes that he has the magical ability to stand outside of his whiteness and judge white and non-white responses objectively.

White people don’t see the irony of perpetuating 18th-century beliefs.

It is ironic that most white people think of non-Western cultures as having the characteristic of “traditional”; when white people believe these centuries-old stereotypes, they are just perpetuating European cultural memes that originated during the 1700s or earlier. When a white person assumes that non-Western cultures are less civilized, perhaps it is a reflection of her own cultural backwardness.**

* Macon D updated his post refuse to listen to black anger sometime after October 20, 2008. The paragraph under discussion now reads:

As they do so, over these and other racial disagreements, these white people often say something like, “If you’re going to get emotional, then I can’t discuss this with you.” For white people in such discussions, anger tends to be a dangerous force that blows out the light of reason. They may not realize it (middle-class ones, especially), but white people often insist that such discussions be conducted in their way. Their calm, rational way, that is, and if they’re talking to someone raised to discuss “hot topics” in an more emotionally engaged way, they not that way. (And guess who’s automatically at an advantage in calm, rational discussions, if they’ve been raised to discuss controversial issues in a calm, rational way?)

** An additional irony is that I actually created the title and wrote most of this post before reading any of Turan’s comments. Only the last paragraph was new.

95 Responses to “White people assume that non-Western cultures are less civilized.”

  1. space Says:

    Evolution is a trial-and-error random walk. The concepts of “more” and “less” evolved almost have no meaning. This goes for biology as well as culture. There is no evolutionary “progress,” just surviving, changing, and dying.

    In Mesoamerica and elsewhere, civilization died by its own hand. It has a tendency to always be at risk of doing that.

  2. Kathy Says:

    you know, i think it’s impossible for any white person to magically stand outside their whiteness. I do find white blogs that focus on race to be mostly confessionals or dumping, and I stopped reading that blog awhile ago. i have written posts complaining about some of the discussions white people have on line, what Macon D must be referring to is the concept of ‘white is nice”, I have heard that expression on-line. I once heard a suggestion that we all sit down and pretend we are at a tea party.
    Macon D can’t possible speak or write for other people, that is what is most astounding in his post, at least to me.

    i would like to “get it” but i think it will take a life time of effort to undue the effects of the images and messages we get from birth onward.

    thanks for this post. i hope you never come over to my place, and then write a post, i tend to get unhinged.

  3. myfootinabigotsbutt Says:

    Kathy get A Clue !!!!

    White people assume that non-Western cultures are less civilized. ?

    Stupid racial crap !!

    IF You Are an Asian and you thought Western cultures are less civilized would you Cry about that ?

    What if you where middle eastern and you thought Western cultures are less civilized would you Cry about that ?

    people need to grow up why don’t white people like my hair why don’t white people like my shoes bbbutt
    there so mean to me boooohoo

    why do Western people have too like other cultures
    Do they like ours ???

    its like sports you have your favorite team and you support it soo live with it !!

  4. Kathy Says:

    hey big foot,

    you are confusing me, i didn’t know i was crying, actually, i rarely cry, and thanks but i don’t need a clue, but i appreciate the concern though, i wish this was my blog so i could …

  5. Kathy Says:

    big foot,

    on the metaphorical, when i go to a yankee game, i wear a kansas city royals hat, i notice you are an anonymous chicken too.

  6. Kathy Says:

    big foot, one more thing, i don’t get unhinged with stupid shits like you, only intelligent people who know how to write a post might unhinge me.

  7. Nquest Says:

    Well, Kathy, you’re right about the intelligent part… The STUPID sports analogy (WTF was that?) and the lazy and all so lame “if you were” question… I mean, it’s just too obvious that MyFootInABigot just isn’t ready.

    I mean, at least humor me/us by actually responding to the topic at hand. And the “why don’t white people like my hair”, ironically, are the kind of things discussed, not here, but on Macon D’s blog.

    So who’s on third? and Who’s on what team? The whole “team” idea = stupid racialist crap.

    My bad. The question for MyFootInABigot is: what planet are you from? This stuff is just unintelligible…

    IF You Are an Asian and you thought Western cultures are less civilized would you Cry about that ?
    What if you where middle eastern and you thought Western cultures are less civilized would you Cry about that ?

    WTF are you trying to say? More importantly, with no “IFs” involved… MyFootInABigot, you posted on this blog. Clearly your answer is you would CRY about it because that’s what you’re doing now… CRYING like a little…

  8. Kathy Says:

    Nquest, that was a real good deconstruction of big foot. thanks.

  9. Kathy Says:

    Ha ha ha Nquest, you are so right, Big Foot is going boo hoo hoo

  10. Kathy Says:

    Nquest, one last thing tonight, a game is actually a good comparison, when i said that i wear a kansas city royals hat, i meant that. i love the yankees , i am a new yorker, but i can stilll appreciate the kansas city royals, they are my team, teams are filled with lots of different people. big foot is trying to understand. give big foot a cookie, he or she might like a cookie.

  11. Restructure! Says:

    I honestly don’t understand what Bigot S. Butt is trying to say or who s/he is addressing.

  12. Kathy Says:

    Restructure, I honestly don’t understand either, but for just one moment, I am going to try. Love your blog. Out.

  13. space Says:

    My rough translation of “big foot” –

    I think this person’s trying to say “There’s nothing racist about liking your culture better than other cultures. It’s no different from liking one sports team better than another.”

    But “That culture is not civilized” is not just saying “I don’t like it as much as my own.” It’s a hierarchical judgment – saying that your culture is inherently better, in the same way that a digital computer from 2008 is better than a digital computer from 1988. And how do we know that? If both cultures can create human well-being and persist over time, is either one bad at what it does?

  14. space Says:

    Granted, that wasn’t necessarily the original meaning of the term “civilization” – in the purest sense, the term simply refers to societies in which people live in cities and, usually, write – but that’s its connotation from our ongoing colonial history.

  15. Kathy Says:

    space, i don’t agree with you, the whole point of this post, (i think) is that white people are not only ethnocentric, but they also view other cultures as savage or less than human.

    i heard a woman once, really well educated, an author of published books, refer to some people of color on a forum as endangered species. I still can’t believe my eyes when i read stuff like that.

    p.s. Restructure, I made a cartoon from an idea I got from one of your blog posts. It will be up shortly.

  16. space Says:

    On what point do you not agree with me? My interpretation of what Big Foot said, in that you thought Big Foot was trying to say something different? Or my interpretation of the connotations of “civilized?”

    I think “civilized” is undeserving of its connotation of superiority, and agree with you that we tend to dehumanize other cultures.

    The point I was trying to make was that Big Foot is wrong in thinking that the issue described in this post was simple “preference” for other cultures, because to call one culture more “civilized” than another is to imply more than simply liking that culture better.

  17. Kathy Says:

    well maybe i read your post wrong. i think nquest got it right, big foot is scared, crying, thinking that s/he might be losing something important. i think that is partly due to the approach anti-zombies have taken, big foot’s feeling some discomfort, but what big foot doesn’t understand is that s/he has much more to gain, it’s big foots point of view that’s in the way.

  18. jwbe Says:

    the first thing what myfoot implies is that racism and nationalism is something ‘natural’

    >why do Western people have too like other cultures
    Do they like ours ???

    this is a mindset quite common among whites who are afraid to lose their culture by “Überfremdung” (too much foreign influence). They feel that only whites have to make compromises but that PoC or different nationalities don’t have to integrate. That rules and laws only protect a foreign culture but not the own.

    He also implies with his “like” that somebody automatically ‘likes’ his own culture. The interesting thing is, when you ask such people how they define their culture, in almost all cases they can’t answer this question. I think this comes from positive stereotyping ones own culture.

    >its like sports you have your favorite team and you support it soo live with it !!

    supporting each other is something different than discriminating against. In sports “fair play” is expected with equal chances for all, so this example also doesn’t work

  19. Kathy Says:

    who can really define one’s own culture? culture is not stagnant, it lives and breaths, it is hard to pin down, it is elusive, even in stagnant places like europe it would be hard to pin down and actually define, it’s paradoxical.
    if you go to germany, nobody is walking around blowing long horns, wearing ancient clothes, but they still drink in the bier house and get drunk as hell. if you go to the united states, how do you really define culture when geographically that’s impossible. the language, the landscape, the demographics, the industries vary so much that i would guess it’s impossible.

    i do agree that white people feel that they are the only ones having to give up anything, and don’t see any other opposing point of view.

  20. jwbe Says:

    every culture has its basics.
    I expect from EVERYBODY who says that s/he is afraid of losing his/her culture that s/he can tell me, what s/he is afraid of losing.
    I am not aware of the stereotype that Germans blow horns. Where does it come from?

  21. Kathy Says:

    white people aren’t afraid of losing their culture, that’s ridiculous, now that i think about it, white people are afraid of losing their majority status privileges. white people are afraid that Obama will “get whitey”, their self-interest is aroused, but that doesn’t mean that their opposing point of view point can’t shift, that’s what i am interested in doing.

    I didn’t say it was a stereotype, I said it was part of their cultural heritage.

  22. Kathy Says:

    every culture has it’s basics, and every people has it’s basic needs that we all share, that’s the focus.

    a big long overdone discussion on the culture of whiteness is not going to get anywhere, it’s a waste of time, and it’s doesn’t really move us toward the goal of shifting opposing viewpoints.

  23. jwbe Says:

    i didn’t know that blowing long horns is part of my heritage.
    If you mean the Alphorn, this is typical for Switzerland.
    Or what do you mean, perhaps I don’t know my own culture/parts of it *shrug*

    now that i think about it, white people are afraid of losing their majority status privileges

    a fear which is part of white/European culture. But if you think my statement is ridiculous, ask white people who say exactly this, that they are afraid to lose their culture.

  24. jwbe Says:

    >a big long overdone discussion on the culture of whiteness is not going to get anywhere, it’s a waste of time, and it’s doesn’t really move us toward the goal of shifting opposing viewpoints.

    and what exactly do you mean with that? Where is the discussion of white culture overdone and what does “shifting opposing viewpoints” mean?

  25. Restructure! Says:

    She probably means the Alphorn. We North Americans are pretty ignorant about European cultures. ;D

    When Kathy used the analogy of German culture without having lived in Germany, it’s another instance of armchair anthropology gone wrong. It’s also ironic that she used the Germany example as if it would help you understand better.

    (Sorry, Kathy. I really do like you and your taste in snark, but I have to call out armchair anthropology even when it’s a White American doing it to a White German. lol. Don’t worry, Macon D called jw an “arrogant European” and made fun of her because didn’t grow up in a country where English was the dominant language.)

  26. Restructure! Says:

    Oh, Kathy. (sigh) I checked out your blog and this part is really white:

    Race. This is the most stupid word, and it’s gonna be a bitch getting rid of the biggest lie of all. Genetically we are all pretty much the same thing. It’s a scientific fact. Check out PBS- Race the Power of an Illusion.

    Today, I am adding another word to the list:

    Anti-Racist how can you be “anti” to something that doesn’t exist? race is an allusion. from now on, I am going to call myself an anti sleeping rip vanwinkle blind and cruel zombiehood person.

    Race definitely exists as a social construct for people who are racialized.

    As for “anti-racist”: how can you be “anti” something that doesn’t exist? Racism doesn’t exist? That’s news to me.

    (I would have commented on your blog, but your comments are turned off.)

  27. Kathy Says:

    sorry you sigh, but i stand by anti zombie hood, that is sartre,, and no, race does not exist, we are far more alike than different, i like you a lot, if you don’t like me, that’s all ok with me.
    and i stand by my statement, i am an anti-zombie, a social construct created by man doesn’t have to exist, except in your mind.
    i could sigh too, but i choose to laugh, and keep working.

  28. Kathy Says:

    i am not an armchair, and you are not germany. ha ha ha, just another boring load. you don’t even know who i am but you choose to describe me. thanks for the vacuum cleaning.

    comments are turned off due to other reasons, maybe i will put them back on when i have had a chance to recover from my life, it’s my blog, it’s a woman thing, you wouldn’t understand, but by all means, get out the vacuum cleaner and stroke away.

    don’t worry, i don’t need apologies.

  29. Kathy Says:

    you don’t really like me, stop lying, you don’t like or know me, if you did, you’d have thought about the shit you just wrote, tell ya the truth, this is as boring as the worst forum i have been on,

    and if you think that race is not a made up thing, i feel sorry for you, who cares what ethnicity you identity with.

    ha ha ha do you really know enough about me to tell why the comments were turned off? man, i was wrong about you though. you are not the final word with me.

  30. Kathy Says:

    yeah, that’s right, i am really white, that’s the funniest thing i have heard in a long time. bye now, with your white approval, white now.

  31. Kathy Says:

    oh wait, this must be rachels tavern, another white learning site, how did that happen? i just love having fun, too bad you don’t know me. yeah, you are so white that i must be stupid. thanks for the shout out though.


  32. Kathy Says:

    i just can’t believe how dense you are, what a shame.

  33. Restructure! Says:


    Actually, I did like you before I saw that stuff about “race doesn’t exist” and that you think “anti-racist” is a stupid term because “race is an allusion [sic]”*. Contrary to Macon D’s assertion, I actually assume that whites (or who I perceive as whites) are trustworthy; that many whites (or perceived whites) destroy the illusion within five minutes of knowing them is a different phenomenon.

    I’m pretty sure “anti zombie hood” has nothing to do with Sartre, and I’m pretty sure that as a woman of colour, I’m not incapable of understanding “woman things”.

    * I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that this is a clever pun instead of a typo, as I agree that the term “race” is an allusion to something much more complex.

  34. Restructure! Says:

    Oh, and I’ve concluded now that we probably were not laughing at the same things.

  35. Kathy Says:

    actually sartre did coin the word zombie, sorry but i have lost a lot of respect for you, if you need the link to sartre and zombie, let me know, and no, unlike you and the rest of the ph.d’s i don’t need your affirmation. thanks. i am fine as i am.

    i actually like myself and don’t need you or anybody else to tell me that.

  36. Kathy Says:

    white about that too, not laughing about the same things, you don’t have a sense of humor either, you white some funny things though.

  37. Kathy Says:

    oh yeah, it was a typo, sorry, i can’t spell, too bad you are so mean and dense.

  38. Kathy Says:

    lol, i can spell some words though

  39. Restructure! Says:

    Oh, you’re right. Sartre coined the word zombie. I fail on that one.

  40. Kathy Says:

    you know what, you are all white with me, this has been so white and nice, that headache i got from some of your fans is all white now. lol, you are so funny and fun.

  41. Kathy Says:

    oh so now i am white about something?

  42. Restructure! Says:

    Can you explain what you’re alluding to when you allude to vacuum cleaning?

    (I thought that when you wrote “sartre,,” it was a typo of “satire”.)

  43. Kathy Says:

    and no, just cause you claim to be a woman of color doesn’t mean you understand a woman thing, that’s all white with me though. i can still like you, even if you don’t lie to me. and no that wasn’t a typo.

    unhinged, i think not, i am just fine.

    unhinged is a state of mind.

  44. Kathy Says:

    ha ha ha , i did spell allusion wrong, i meant to fix that, i was alluding to white woman stroking themselves with a vacuum cleaner, cause they got nothing else to do while they white husband is at work for ninety hours a week.

  45. Kathy Says:

    hey restructure, i hope you are not too mad, this has been a bit fun.

  46. Kathy Says:

    ha ha ha satire and sartre, now that IS funny.

  47. Restructure! Says:

    No, I’m not mad either, lol. I had fun, maybe because I got owned with respect to “Sartre”.

  48. Kathy Says:

    ha ha ha i just saw that comment about long overdone conversations on white culture and shifting opinions, now that if fucking funny, i can’t stop laughing.

    duh, just what is that anyway????

  49. Restructure! Says:

    Okay, WTF does this mean???

    “ha ha ha, just another boring load.”

  50. Kathy Says:

    i meant Is f funny sorry for the swear words, they just pour out of me like a bottle of maple syrup.

  51. Kathy Says:

    sorry, but that dumb comment was freaking funny, how’s that for a correction? that was so white of that commenter to pronounce stupid with the word white.

  52. Kathy Says:

    i have been on enough sites and forums to know that there are plenty of boring loads of shit to listen to, sorry, i didn’t mean you, if you didn’t mean me.

  53. Restructure! Says:

    Oh, when I said that your comments are turned off, I didn’t mean that you should turn them on. I was just explaining why I commented here instead of your blog, since normally, it would be more appropriate to comment on your blog.

    I identify as an “anti-racist”, by the way.

  54. Kathy Says:

    and tomorrow, i want to write about how to shift opposing opinions, i hope you will be there, this has been a lot of fun, thank you Restructure.

  55. Kathy Says:

    Restructure, I identify as an anti-zombie. that’s the way i see it. white construct causes zombiehood.

  56. Kathy Says:

    white zombies are the result of white racism, sleeping like rip van winkle, not aware of the scars they have inflicted, like braindead walking.

  57. jwbe Says:

    what caused Kathy’s reaction?

  58. Restructure! Says:

    I guess it was snarky criticism that got her unhinged for a while.

  59. Kathy Says:

    sorry, i wasn’t unhinged, it would take a lot more than telling me how stupid i am to get me unhinged. jwbe, what caused you to ask such a silly question?

    snark can be fun.

  60. jwbe Says:

    my, you first come up with a wrong statement about Germans, you know, the long horn.
    And asking you what you mean with other statements is a legitimate question. You can either answer it or they are empty phrases. Your reaction was just “ha ha ha i just saw that comment about long overdone conversations on white culture and shifting opinions, now that if fucking funny, i can’t stop laughing.”

  61. jwbe Says:

    >I guess it was snarky criticism that got her unhinged for a while.

    I won’t give up believing that one day I will come across a white person and talking about racism and race is possible without all this ‘outbursts’ and weird reactions. You know, I am waiting for the white, who can discuss race in a calm and rational manner;-)

  62. Kathy Says:

    i did not come up with a wrong statement about long horns, and i did not have an outburst or weird reaction, but if you find that answer satisfying, go ahead. i stand by myself, and what i say. you are the one asking the wrong questions, acting weird, and having an outburst.

    just because you have made some erroneous assumptions and asked about the overdone discussion on white culture, is that my fault?

  63. jwbe Says:

    so you are German I assume, based on your knowledge about this alleged part of German heritage.
    And your reaction shows that you can’t explain your own statements. I don’t understand your rejection of explaining your point of view, when somebody doesn’t understand what you want to say with it.

  64. Kathy Says:

    this will be to the point jwbe,

    perhaps, jwbe, you might stop for a moment with your assumptions about me and what you deem outburst or weird reaction, you know nothing about me, and obviously, nothing about long horns either, it was a simple explanation that you seem to want to blow out of proportion.

    just as i know nothing about you, long horns are part of traditional german folk music, not a stereotype, pure and simple. that’s all that was meant, why do you find me weird or an outburst, when i am only speaking in simple terms?

    yes, the discussions about white culture, in my opinion, is way over done, and i stand by that too.

    if ever i find a group of people who are willing to sit down and discuss the possibilities for change and shifting opposing view points, that will be a good day.

    take care now.

  65. Kathy Says:

    sorry if i haven’t been clear enough for you, if you think that long horns are alleged, what more can i say.

    take care,

  66. jwbe Says:

    this what you probably know as “folk music” isn’t folk music, but an invention of a style of music which doesn’t have anything to do with real traditional folk music. This alleged “folk music” is just about 20 years old, so you can neither talk about tradition nor heritage. Quote from a German website:”This what is called “folk music” today was invented within the last 20 years and perfected for consumerism”.
    This kind of music unfortunately keeps alive or produces quite alot of stereotypes about Germany and Germans, which I find in particular very annoying because it stereotypes Bavarians the rest of Germany likes to make fun about and this is sold throughout the world. Your Alphorn is just such an example of it.
    What many people outside Germany think to be “typical German” is in reality the mockery of Bavarian culture.

  67. Kathy Says:

    unlike that website, i have actually been to bavaria.

    take care,

  68. Kathy Says:

    i do like kraftwork though, and i can count to ten.

    on the other hand, maybe you are right,

    sort of like cardinal eagen and the pope are mockery of the catholic church, it all depends on who thinks what about it.

    bavarian aur dult is really cool.

  69. Kathy Says:


    i am sorry if i hurt your feelings though, i shouldn’t have made fun of your comment, although i do think white culture has been overdone, with no results, what’s the point, and if i am wrong about the long horns, well thanks for that illumination. bavaria is not an accurate picture of germany, some of the best films and lit. come from germany, even the language is different, and i only chose germany because i had kraftwork on my mind, not for any other reason. your assumption as to why i choose that example was not accurate.

  70. jwbe Says:

    It’s not about hurt feelings but about producing stereotypes. If you believe that Bavaria is not an accurate picture of Germany, what do you believe is this accurate picture?
    My assumption about you being German was ironic.

    And I don’t think that discussions are overdone with no results in America, but I can compare it to the situation where there is no discussion about white culture

  71. jwbe Says:

    edit: but I can compare it to the situation in Germany where there is no discussion about white culture

  72. Kathy Says:

    the discussions all end up being trainwrecks with a plea for a tea cup and raised pinkie,

    i have no interest in producing or encouraging stereotypes.

    please give me a comparison, i would like to read it.

  73. jwbe Says:

    >i have no interest in producing or encouraging stereotypes.

    then again the question: If you believe that Bavaria is not an accurate picture of Germany, what do you believe is this accurate picture?

  74. Kathy Says:

    that would be like saying that one area or state in the US is an accurate picture. other than that, i have no freaking idea.

    well, i might have some ideas, the language in bavaria is not exactly what’s taught in the US as traditional german.

    i can’t remember off the top of my head, but i have seen some really thought provoking german films, berlin has a vibrant thing going on, not stagnant at all,

    however, i believe you have a much better answer than i do, why would i prove to you that i am a complete and utter moron?

    and hurt feelings do count, i am sorry.

  75. Kathy Says:

    moron might be a stereotype, if so, just explain and delete.


  76. Kathy Says:

    oh, and just to clarify, i know that berlin is not in bavaria, i was making a comparison. sorry about that.

  77. jwbe Says:

    >please give me a comparison, i would like to read it.

    The reason why I think that talks about whiteness aren’t overdone or lead to nothing is that Europeans worldwide have to realize that white supremacy is all about whiteness and is the soul of Eurocentrism. In Germany today is remembrance day for the Jewish victims of the Kristallnacht. It could be also the day where Germans could remember all the other 5 million non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust. The silence about them doesn’t make any sense in terms of humanity, but it makes sense I think in terms of Eurocentrism. The Holocaust displays the entire failure of Eurocentrism and who wants to admit this, when Europeans/whites want to see their European culture as the most civilized and progressive.
    In Germany non-German PoC “don’t exist”. The remembrance today in Germany could also be used to question Eurocentrism, which created a “new race” out of a religion, Jewish, and today the Western world does exactly the same thing: the creation of the “Muslim race”.
    Because in Germany whiteness “doesn’t exist”, racism “doesn’t exist”. Most “anti-racist” organizations in Germany are either anti-right-wing-extremism or pro-immigrants rights. Non-German PoC aren’t recognized.

  78. Kathy Says:

    i took a trip to dachau when i was in bavaria, you speak the truth, thank you for that, yes, a lot of people represented there do not exist. is today really remembrance day, when i was in a bier house, i was told that every day was remembrance day, it was a real depressing trip.

  79. Kathy Says:

    and i am glad to have met you.

  80. Kathy Says:

    the pope helped to make muslims the new race, he’s a rat b.
    it was amazing to see how packed the catholic church was, it suffocated me, i had to leave it was so overflowing.

  81. jwbe Says:

    what was depressing and what do you mean with ‘every day was remembrance day’ ?

  82. Kathy Says:

    the talks about whiteness that you refer to are not the usual talks.

  83. Kathy Says:

    yes, that’s what some very underwhelmed people said to us, that every day was “remembrance day”, germany is the best example of man’s inhumanity to man, but that’s where it ends, they are the new scapegoat for cruelty, everybody else somehow gets a pass on that.

  84. Kathy Says:

    depressing, well, i never planned on going to bavaria, it was all a huge fate thing, i meant to go to berlin,

    i met a lot of different people there, it was the beginning of the v-e 50 year celebrations, the war in bosnia was raging, i met those kids too. the american pows that i met are probably all dead now, i am glad i had the chance to talk to them, they gave me hope.

  85. jwbe Says:

    >the talks about whiteness that you refer to are not the usual talks.

    For me, talks about whiteness aren’t overdone but don’t go far enough

    And it may be that Germany is the ‘new scapegoat’ and others get a pass, but that doesn’t mean that Germany herself did mature or honestly tries to make history a thing of the past. We Germans as a collective won’t be successful in our goal to ‘learn from history’ as long as we don’t have the balls to face ALL of our history and most of all present and how eager our government is to appear ‘concerned’ etc., but in reality they give a shyt. It is Germany’s part for the world to ‘demonstrate’ guilt to say so as the nation which lost WWII, but like always appearance is more important than acually living up to the ideal.
    In Germany not every day is a day of remembrance

  86. Kathy Says:

    agreed,( the talks about whiteness aren’t overdone, and they don’t go far enough, )

    actually Muslims are the new scapegoat, thanks for letting me have the time to figure that out, it took Colin Powell what the Pope should have said, I can’t stand the Pope, he is an asshat distorting quotes.

    I know that every day is not remembrance day, it was said to us over and over in a sarcastic tone. maybe i will write about that short trip, what it was like through my filter.

  87. nquest2xl Says:

    “actually Muslims are the new scapegoat…”

    You say that like there’s a hard and fast rule where the scapegoatees have to take turns. With the Prop 8 situation and the foreclosure aspect of the American economic crisis, no one is blaming Muslims.

    Simply put, there’s plenty of different things to blame different people for. With enough practice, you too can learn how to assign a rainbow coalition of non-white people as the reason to all white folks problem.

    No jobs? It’s the damn Mexican fault. Blowback? Those A-rabs hate our way of life.

  88. Kathy Says:

    thanks, i understand that certain groups face certain particularly racialized attacks.

    i watched a black co worker once start yelling and screaming about the muslims driving all the cabs and the mexicans stealing all the work. isn’t that what you mean?

    nothing is hard and fast with me, although i am opinionated.

    and i still think that in the United States, Muslims or anyone Middle Eastern has had a really, really hard time after the 9/11 attacks. The pope’s statement was used over and over, by many different people.

    that doesn’t invalidate other people’s scars at the hands of white construct, at least to me, anyways.

  89. Kathy Says:

    no one has to blame the muslims for the economic crisis, although if they could, they would,

    derivatives caused the fake crash, i just talked to your average joe and he knows it too.

  90. Kathy Says:

    just a question, then i pack it up, is three hundred against one that funny to you? i already done that one before, it was so tiring, and i will still get up tomorrow and keep on the keep on.
    tell me again how stupid i am, thanks

  91. jwbe Says:

    @kathy, fyi it’s quite difficult to follow your thoughts or what you want to say.

  92. Kathy Says:


    i will try to be as concise as possible in the future.


  93. Stuff POC do: restrain ourselves « Restructure! Says:

    […] white people seem to think that white people restrain themselves, and that people of colour are emotional children with undeveloped self-awareness who cry all the time about hurt feelings or yell all the […]

  94. Kills_apNy Says:

    Actually, there were some biological differences found between the races. In most whites, the pineal gland is calcified due to lack of melenin. This leads them to be less coordinated and supposidly have a lack of cognitive ability. Blacks also have higher twitch fibers and the melenin allows the body to react faster and more smoothly. I would also think that this would days them to be more agressive but that part of the study is civrniently left out. I’m not gonna writ the link cause I’m on an iPod touch and I don’t feel like it. You could go look up the study yourself, it’s by Carol Bames.

  95. Restructure! Says:


    I looked it up, and “melanin theory” is generally considered pseudoscience.


    What race are you?

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